Return tonight after Rob Bell’s live stream
If you didn’t catch the post last week, a number of us have pre-ordered Rob Bell’s new book, Love Wins, which releases tomorrow (hardcopy / Kindle version). Some of us have read Rob’s previous books, some haven’t. Some of us are fans of Rob (and his theology), some definitely aren’t.
And of course, that’s not our focus here. We don’t want to put a specific teacher of the Word up on a platform and worship them. We want to listen to what God has to say through them, and simply grow in our relationship with Him and understanding of how He wants us to live (online and offline).
As we prepare to read and discuss the book together, I’m opening up the comments of this blog post as a discussion around Rob’s livestream tonight at 7pm. Feel free to come back here after the stream has ended (tonight or over the next few days), and share your thoughts on what you heard. Thanks for stopping by!
UPDATE – I’ve embedded the livestream video below, since some missed it (people enter stage around 9:50 mark of video). I think it’s a great thing that an event like this broke Livestream’s records of live attendance. The highest I saw watching at one time tonight was 6,121 people online. Feel free to watch it and enter the discussion within the comments of this post. Thanks!
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Finished Chapters 3 and 4. Frankly, I’m now having a real problem figuring out what all of the yelling was about. This really is just The Great Divorce in non-novel form for a more contemporary audience.
I’m not sure of Bell’s and Lewis’ ideas of hell perfectly align, but they are pretty close. Without (so far) saying it, Lewis’ idea of (paraphrase) “hell being locked from the inside, not the outside” really comes through, particularly in Chapter 4.
And, yes. He does believe in some literal hell after death. But, again, it relates to the Lewis-ian idea of our life, now, being the beginning of our life to come. Bell indicates that it is fully possible that, even in the face of heaven, some will choose hell.
Interesting quote from the Hell chapter:
“There is hell now,
and there is hell later,
and Jesus teaches us to take both seriously.”
“(H)ell later” seems to imply that he does, indeed, believe in hell after death.
Now to keep on reading to see what he means by that.
Up to this point, though, nothing worth freaking out about in terms of theology. But, some very direct challenges by the author to get off of our butts and get doing some Kingdom work.
Just finished all of Chapter 2. The Heaven chapter. Frankly, it’s a contemporary restatement of Lewis’ ideas from the Great Divorce.
I’m assuming that all of the hair burning of recent days wasn’t about Chapter 2, because the hair burners all sort of like Lewis.
On to Chapter 3. Hell. Is this where the “fun” begins?
Reading it. Generally liking it so far. Only about a quarter of the way in, though.
And, look! He’s getting into the necessity of judgment and God’s wrath (although he seems to be mainly calling it “anger”) in Chapter 2.
Rob mentioned Christ saying, “No one comes to the Father but by Me” – Rob endorses this. I do think he endorses hell during his description of the person denying Christ and then leaving and getting into a car accident. He is saying that he thinks we need to do a better job presenting the true God – a God of Love. You can safely say that he is trying to “sell” people on God but he has a point. Instead of scaring people into Faith, teach them that they are loved.
I would agree that Rob believes in hell being a real place, he just raises the important question of “why should we scare people instead of inviting them”. I look at it as a scale, and he’s leaning heavily toward the God that is loving side and less toward the God that is just side. Is that accurate?
This also just hit me.
OK, I’m going to use baptism as part of the analogy. This is not meant to start a discussion of baptism. Merely to make a bigger point.
I, personally, prefer believer’s baptism by immersion. I believe that the Bible teaches it and that it paints the best picture of death and rebirth in Christ. However, I have many friends who adhere to infant baptism.
I *understand* why they do that (I attended denominational schools with that belief in the past), in terms of a NT form of circumcision and an idea of covenant community. But, I still think that it is wrong.
Do I think that they are heretics? No.
Do I think that they are unbelievers? No.
Are they insincere in their belief? Now.
Do I think that they have their heart in the right place? Yes.
Can I learn something from their stance, even if they are wrong? Yes.
Indeed, I can, and should learn about the idea of a covenant community and what it means in a body of believers. That said, I think that that can be practiced in the context of believer’s baptism.
(And, if you think that infant baptism is the way to go, simply turn my analogy around.)
Same deal with Mr. Bell. I think that he is right on a lot of points. I think that he is wrong in a particular area because his articulated view **does not paint the best possible picture***. But…
He is not a heretic (particularly since his ideas are hardly new in the church).
He is a fellow brother in Christ.
He is sincere.
He wants to be used by Christ to reach people.
He can still teach us something.
Anyhow… I hope that that analogy works.
Your point brings up something that’s very important, labeling people as heretics just because a few of their beliefs don’t exactly line up with our own.
He was pretty clear on most things, and I think over time he’ll learn that he needs to become more clear on the “hell being a real place / heaven’s gates being open to people beyond judgment” topic.
To me, that’s a much deeper topic than baptism since it lines up with the power of the cross and whether or not we should live like it has changed us or just wait and hope to get into the gates. Good point doc!
I’m sorry…the guy is a whack. He just ignores what Scripture says and tries to make everyone happy. Feel sorry for all the people being duped and believing him rather than what the Scripture says.
What parts of Scripture do you think he’s ignoring (could he have shared)? I know that he didn’t share specific scripture (pointed to Revelation) during the interview. Just curious to hear what Scripture you might think he’s avoiding.
Yeah I would love to hear, because I feel like Jesus came to give us the greatest commandment, Love your Neighbor as yourself.
Oh, I don’t know, how about John 3:16 or any Scripture that talks about the only way to get to heaven is by accepting Him as your Savior and giving your life to Him. He missed a great opportunity when the moderator said she was Jewish and asked how to get to heaven. He totally dodged it when he should have said…hello…have you even read the New Testament or have you been stuck in the Old Testament. Either you believe what it says in the New Testament or you don’t. I need to download the sample of her book on my ipad to see what she thinks about heaven since that’s the name of her book.
You know, the guy is just doing what he thinks is right. Somewhere along the line he got off the train and figured out as Joel Osteen has that a message of only the love of Jesus goes over a lot better than the just Jesus (as you said in an earlier post).
But he confirmed that Jesus is the mechanism to get to Heaven. And it sounds like he has read the New Testament to me, because he knows a lot of the teachings of Jesus.
Wasn’t Jesus really controversial? Have we gotten back too far away from Jesus – God is Love – Have we gotten too close to religion and all of its rules?
These might be odd questions, but they are what I am thinking. What are your thoughts on Rob never sharing a specific verse during the entire interview? Is his skeptical / question-asking style of delivery just a way to get more people to buy his books / attend his church? Asking people questions isn’t a bad thing, I kind of see it as a form of story-telling…..something Christ practiced often through parables.
I guess it just seems to me that he’s the Christian version of Mark Zuckerberg. Eyes bouncing back and forth, trying to think of the next smart “Rob” thing to say or ask instead of focusing on the Word as much as others do. I do believe he lied to us twice…..saying that he’s not a theologian or a smart guy, LOL.
I think Rob missed a great opportunity to engage the moderator when she brought up the infamous, “What about Job?” question. She said that bad things kept on happening to Job assuming that he was innocent and did not have a covenant with God. Her question assumed that God did horrible things to Job for no good reason. There are so many things wrong with those assumptions it’s hard to know where to begin. I can only hope that Rob not knowing where to begin was the reason for his avoidance of the subject.
How would you have answered her?
I believe God had confidence in Job, and Satan was testing God by saying that Job wouldn’t love God as much if Satan were to test him. God didn’t allow Job to be hurt and tested because He hated Job, even though that’s what it feels like to us most of the time.
It’s easier to say that from the outside looking in. I believe God allowed Satan to do his work, and in the end Satan was proved to be wrong again. Love does really win.
I think the scriptures tell us that satan was given access to Job not because he accused him of wrongdoing before God, (he accuses the brethren before God day and night) but rather because of what was in Job’s heart. Scripture tells us that Job was filled with fear…Job 3:25 “the very thing I greatly feared has come upon me.” The rest of the next 30 chapters reveal what Job really thought of God. He accuses God again and again of injustice and tries to justify himself by his good works. He cries out for a mediator, a redeemer …prophetically speaking of Christ. Elihu points out in chapter 33 that God spoke to Job in many different ways to warn Job but he did not perceive it.
The good news is Job is redeemed by a loving merciful Father and he was blessed twice as much in the second half of his life.
I missed it, hope to catch a replay..
I’ve embedded the video at the end of the post just now, so feel free to come back and watch – starting at the 9:50 mark, when people show up on stage.
That is an interesting verse. I love that part of Scripture, but never really focused on that one bit.
In my view, there *must* be judgement in order for there also be be love. I was a bit frustrated that he never said “yes, hell is a place” beyond his assertions that hell is what we make of it here on earth (or something to that effect).
I appreciate CS Lewis’ vision of Hell as a infinite, but minuscule place where those who reject God continue to reject Him and also reject all other relationship (for how can there be relationship of any sort without God?) and move further and further away.
Hell seems to exist as a place beyond the here and now. At least according to how I read Scripture. The specifics aren’t known. And, frankly (as I am slightly open to annihilationist points of view) the duration is up for discussion.
But, main point… eventually all will be judged. It’s vital. If it weren’t for judgement, and justice, why bother with the Kingdom work that we do? I need to know that God is going to set everything right some day. And part of that process – indeed central to that process – is judgement.
Anyhow, lots to chew on. I think that I’m going to find the book interesting. Part of Bell’s gig is to ask questions. That’s fine, of course. I guess we all have to seek the answers.
It’s true that he dodged the “hell is an actual” place point. He kept sliding around it, talking about it as being the hell that we are seeing these days (people choosing to do the wrong thing / abusing others with their power). As a few friends online pointed out, I think he’s more suited for politics than theology.
Well, I think that theology needs a conversation too. Perhaps his part is to stir things up a bit.
I truly believe that he’s sincere, and that he’s a Christian brother. I don’t agree with everything that he says. But that’s not surprising, since I don’t agree with everything that anyone says, and neither do I expect complete concordance to my views.
I do appreciate that he makes me think. And he is right on many things as well.
Near the end of Rob’s conversation, his main focus seemed to be around telling people about the good God instead of the just God. I understand that people who don’t believe in God need to understand just how much He loves them / how Christ was sent to the cross to die for them. Do we preach to much about the just God, the God that looks like someone’s abusive father, too often?
Rob mentioned that Revelation (which would be Revelation 21:24-25) talks about heaven being a place where people get into, but that there is always a door open there. It’s a very mysterious verse. Do you believe that it means that people who did not qualify to enter may get it past the time of judgment?
Gates of a city in the ancient world were there to protect the city from enemies outside. They were closed at the most dangerous time, nightfall, darkness. I think this passage speaks to a time when the enemies of God and man are destroyed forever…Death being the last enemy to be destroyed. The Holy Spirit tells us in Revelation that there will no longer be a need for the sun and the moon because the source of light is God. Darkness will never again fall on God’s Kingdom and there will be no need to close the gate.
This view makes much more sense than the spin Rob put on it. Wow, that’s just deep. I wonder why God would have John (who is believed to write Revelation) define heaven as having gates. Gates to me speak to the fact that you can enter / exit a certain area. Why wouldn’t heaven just be made of walls? Great point Scott!
I guess if we took the gates to be literal, the people in heaven could also leave and go to hell if they choose (maybe Rob believes that, LOL). Obviously we won’t know until the time comes, but it’s interesting to not just think of people / souls being able to enter and exit, but death being conquered and not being able to.
Will be taking notes this evening. Pretty crazy to see over 1,200 viewers ready 15 minutes before it starts. Can’t even have a serious discussion in the chat over there.